The Giant Beastcast: Episode 266

Hey all, as mentioned at the top of this show, there are discussions today about sexual assault and abuse during the first 45 minutes or so. To paraphrase our community rules: "We reserve the right to take context into account when making moderation decisions. In other words, we may moderate topics about controversial or heated subjects more strictly than we would topics about less serious matters." In other words: treat the subject matter seriously or you'll be removed from this conversation. This isn't the time or the place for whataboutisms or "what about false allegations" or "I'm just asking questions" type conversations.

As said on the show, we are always inclined to believe accusers when serious allegations are made and we as a staff are committed to ensuring that our guests and community members feel welcomed at all times. We have failed in that regard before as staff (you can read Jeff's more thorough statement about Max here) and we have certainly not done a perfect job in that regard as a moderation staff. Some of you have seen the moderations we sent regarding Tadthuggish back when Temkin appeared on PAX shows; we made a huge mistake and I have reached out to Tad to get his contact information. I'm going to apologize to him personally and I'd like to apologize to him here as well. We'll try to do better on all fronts as best we can going forward.

From a personal standpoint, I knew and worked and socialized with Chris Avellone at Obsidian and, like almost everyone else in the industry, have a great deal of respect for him as a writer. To that end, I helped book him for last year's E3 chats. I was very surprised by what has been revealed about his behavior and I regret being involved with having him on the show.

I appreciate that they broached the accusations and people related to the site head on. I remember when Max appeared during that PAX and it never sat well with me as purely a fan of everyone on the site. I don't expect everyone to be perfect but I do respect when they can own up to their mistakes.

Heavy Episode

EDIT: thanks for the guys just being outspoken about this

Thanks for addressing this head on.

Edit: Also, the message Abby sent about not just denouncing this behaviour and moving on is much appreciated. It's something I personally need to inculcate and apply to friends, family and co-workers.

I've only started listening, but I just want to say that I appreciate Vinny, Abby, Alex and Jeff (and really the rest of the site) being willing to be candid and honest about where they find themselves in this situation. I can't speak for the community as a whole but I'm glad to have you all speaking about this so openly, despite how messy or fraught it might be.

Hearing the Beastcast crew talk openly about this and not being afraid to name names is much appreciated. Thanks for all that you do.

Good on you guys for addressing this crap.

Sad that this kind of shit keeps rearing it's ugly head and people can't grasp the simple concept of Don't Be A Piece of Shit!

Much love for ya guys!

Respect you guys for getting on top of this. The simple truth is, you never really know a person. So finding out that spme guys GB associated with more than once, turns out to be a scumbag isn't the staffs fault. It would've been your fault if you looked the other way. You guys didn't, so you're good.

I don't get the Facebook hate. You can block or unfriend anyone you want.

I think Vinny made the point about Facebook more about how they are culpable for the proliferation of dis-information which poses a real-world threat to democracy around the world.

Hey y'all, thanks for talking through this. I know it is not easy but the more we all do the easier it gets. More importantly, the more everyone is open about this mess the sharper we will be at reprimanding the guilty party and the less room there will be for abuse and bad behavior in the future.

It's more about Facebook the company. Facebook has had a relatively problematic track record as of late including refusing to remove political ads containing provably false information, complacency with dealing with state-run misinformation campaigns, and a myriad of other things they have done recently.

Thank you for treating this stuff with the gravity and respect it deserves. This may be a goofy hobby, but that doesn't insulate you as content makers, or us as an audience from these issues and it does everyone some good to take a step back and take stock of things once and a while. Makes me proud to support all of you, and the site. Keep on keeping on.

I'm only about halfway through this episode so far, but I appreciate you all having these discussions about making this site a safe and inclusive place for people. You're human, so sometimes things slip through the cracks or you make an error in judgement, but when I hear y'all talk about this stuff it comes across to me that you are trying to be the best people right now that you know how to be and also using your platform to try to make the world a little brighter.

One thing I hear Vinny bring up and the Alex rant, and I've seen it other places. They aren't "mixing" Mixer and Facebook, pardon the pun. Mixer is going away, I'm not sure why this part is hard to parse.

Really appreciate the frank and open discussion about these things. Thanks everyone.

I’m also glad, as someone who’s being following the site for years now, to see it change and evolve and really hopes it continues that way moving forward.

Rough topic, rough show. But I appreciate the crew being so open and direct on the topic.

Abby talking about holding her friends accountable is a good lesson. We can't snap our fingers and fix everything at once, but we can all do our part in our own communities and groups. Which can be extremely tough to do. Unfollowing someone you like is hard, but calling out their bullshit can be even harder.

Thank you all so much for the power of your words. I appreciate the way you all owned up to what happened on your end and I genuinely believe that you all meant no harm. Thank you so much for the kindness and love you all show.

@yapapanda It didn't sit well with a lot of the GB community. And if I remember right, a lot of it was said on the forums. So, it's kinda weird that they acted like no one was saying anything. But yes, I'm glad it was addressed.

Tough episode. While it was hard to hear the state we are in as a gaming community, it was necessary and should be addressed so I applaud the team for that. Noone can know everything about an individual so I'm glad at times like these you will at least speak to it.

One thing I thought stuck out was the comments towards TLOU2 from Abby. Obviously a difficult topic to speak to from the outside but I feel like commenting on the issues trans people have with the game without finishing it might be premature, especially considering the character Abby brought up was not the individual who identified as trans. No spoilers but I think there was some involuntary stereotyping that people who have not completed the game have brought up and this is an extention of it. I cannot go into it further without stirring the spoiler pot, but the issue the trans community has with the actual character in question is a conversation that is very important and should be discussed, maybe on the spoiler cast! I don't mean to be negative and if thy is how I sounds I apologize, so as a consolation can we get another episode showing off Abby's 5 star island in ACNH?!

Thanks guys for all the great content and stay safe!

I'm only halfway through this one but as I wrote on the Bombcast, thank you guys for talking about the heavy news so directly. It might just be me but I dislike when people try and tiptoe around stuff or pretend it doesn't exist and try to continue like nothing is wrong. I think it's important for everyone to talk about these things and go into them in detail because it's just so wrong and awful, and trying to act like they don't exist is like ignoring the victims who go through it all and have such a difficult time speaking out in the first place. So again, thank you all!

Of course, if you're a viewer who is uncomfortable with the subject matter then I completely understand. As long as a majority of people are talking about it and confronting it, I think that's good.

Thank you all.

Abby really knocked it out of the park with her remarks. This has been a wake up call for all of us.

The one new thing Vinny said they were going to do for "E3 Season" was a weekly news wrap up thing, so I'm guessing that they decided to scrap that idea.

I'm glad some people are finding a way forward through the trauma they endured. I really wish this climate had been around back when Shadow Complex came out. I took a never ending amount of shit for being pissed about Orson Scott Card's involvement in that game.

I hope in the future, people will be more receptive to this kind of thing. I like people, and it would be better if more people weren't suffering so much.

Very professional approach to this stuff by Giant Bomb. It does feel that they’re avoiding using the words “we didn’t know” and instead the procedure is “apologize for everything” and “we should’ve known better” but obviously the GB staff couldn’t have. I kinda understand why GB are taking this approach but also, it just sticks out a bit as unnecessary and a little strange.

I’m in support of this movement but as far as Matt Pascual goes; again, as the crew mentioned, we don’t know the whole story, but where is the line between sexual abuse and just being a crappy partner at times? Cheating in a relationship is not cool but not worth a guy being thrown under the bus.

I do find it interesting how all these moral crusaders keeps being outed for what they really are.

What a stupid thing to say. What are you insinuating? What the hell is a "moral crusader"? Would that include Vinny and the rest of the Beast Crew? Or are they exempt because they're some of the good ones?

We all know what you're trying to say. Are there still sites for goobergate reactionaries? Go to one of them and let the grown ups talk here.

In GB’s defense, in some of these cases there was no way for them to know... However, it is good that GiantBomb is owning up to some of their mistakes.

ah one of those people who says social justice and morality are bad. As well as caring about anyone outside yourself.

Well I think that outs yourself bud.

@ybbaaabby Please don't take my statement as a hole you dig yourself out of. Far from it. Honestly I think these conversations are healthy for progress as a society! Love your work and please enjoy TLOU2 with an open mind. ND are willing to craft a story never told in contemporary medium. You don't have to agree but after Left Behind I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've only listened to the first section of this pod so far, but I want to echo everyone else here with my thanks for how you all are dealing with some really shitty topics. I gained so much respect for all of you, but especially Abby and Vinny, talking about the systemic problems in the gaming community and out society. You're all very well spoken and it's easy to see just how much you care. I wish the leadership of this country showed the same moral fiber you all do.

By the way, I would tell people if you skip like 43 min in you'll miss the heavy talk.

Not sure why instead they said hey leave and come back next week (its not even half of the episode).

For me, I'll go back to it as right now I listened to a couple wrestling podcasts about this over the past few days alone and it's been a lot. Its important but also exhausting with everything else going on.

Really glad to see Giant Bomb addressing important issues. Really proud of everyone on the site. Also, Abby sorely needs a fan....

I assumed that the Temkin allegations were overblown because Giant Bomb kept him in their orbit. I figured they knew something I didn't, so it's immensely disappointing to hear that no, the Bomb Crew just exercised incredibly poor judgement for a very long time.

"Abby sorely needs a fan...."

I just assumed it was toots.

I think as a trigger warning for victims of abuse it's helpful to know exactly when and where you're able to listen so a timestamp is always appreciated. Obviously when this stuff is being recorded live on twitch it's difficult to know when these conversations will start and end though, which is probably why Vinny left it so vague.

@toughshed: Thanks for the heads up. I was going to listen to the whole thing regardless, but would have probably saved it for another time. I'm going through some stuff and two hours of heavy isn't what I need right now.

I was a huge fan of Cards Against Humanity and would see all their panels, loved seeing the charities and support they provided comedy, as well as the focus on improving board games(though I didn't play many new ones). I had no idea about the allegations, the workplace behavior or any of this. I smiled when I saw Max Temkin's logo on Samurai Gunn, as at the time it was connecting different cool things I loved.

But in the wake of all this stuff, seeing the statement CAH put out, the recent news about comedians, DOTA 2, Wrestling, Starcraft and even just checking into Riot games again has been so so tough. I wasn't aware that any of this was going on, and it's sickening to me to know that it has been covered up for so long. Now that I've heard Austin talk about how he regretted being on a panel with Max, I realize just how distant I've been that I didn't know about what's been a loosely kept secret for years.

But what really hurts me is how much it must have sucked to just see all this swept under the rug. Everything that I feel by just being let down as a fan; it must be so much worse for all the people whose message got ignored because the games were bigger than them, the abusers were bigger than them. That should never be OK, because games should be for people not the other way around. I have other thoughts about whether the humor is ok in CAH or not, but I feel those concerns are so so very minor as opposed to the real suffering people have went through. I haven't watched the video yet, but just with everything going on these days, the feelings have just been boiling in my gut about all this. It's just a bad scene man.

EDIT: Post listening, I totally agree with the ongoingness. I remember at a PAX dev around five years ago, the keynote talked about diversity and the issues we face. The Panelist asked how many women in the audience had to leave somewhere because they were scared of a man(Parking lot, Bar, etc.). Half of them raised their hands. And that was a place far more privileged than much of the world. But I'm not aware of how often it's covered up. I have driven away people for trying to respect them while also helping them realize these kinds of issues, and it's not something that I hear about happening from those around me. I do my best to be a positive force to those around me, but when something like this happens, it shocks me with how little things have changed. Sometimes I just wish I could make a bigger difference, but I don't know where I would even start.

This episode while hard to listen was greatly appreciated and your guys insight helps with educating the listerners. Especially abbys perspective in regards to matt. I think thats the exact approach one should take. Keep ypur circles in check.

On the theaters bit, ive never had a better movie theater experience then watching the broly dragon ball super movie in a packed theater with a bunch of fellow fans. It was a fucking fantastic experience

I had no idea about Jack Gallagher or Matt Pascual. Sucks. Sucks sucks sucks.

Abby, thank you for the point about trying to better your friends. That’s something I’ve been struggling to articulate and I think you put it very well.

Hi. I wanted to comment on the discussion of sexual misconduct. It is a huge problem and hopefully, we as humanity as a whole will slowly, but surely deal with our unideal nature and move towards a more reasonable and non-agressive/helpful future.

Having said that, I have a problem with one of the statements that was said during the discussion. Obviously, since the discussion was live, it could have been said somewhat "in the moment", but it should be commented on nonetheless.

Abby says at one point (around 18 minutes): "It doesn't matter what is true and what is not true, it matters..."

While I understand the point that Abby tries to make, that any allegations need to be investigated and brought to light (which is absolutely correct), I believe that it matters extremely, what is true and what is not. Facts need to be looked at. Emotions are facts as well, that is true. And emotions need to be looked at, just as any other facts. Because of that, especially in the cases of emotional abuse, it is very hard to discern exactly what is "true". But nonetheless, we should strive towards finding this truth and not give in to the, somewhat nihilistic, notion that nothing is true and it does not matter. Usually (speaking from my experience) any conflict has two viewpoints. And hopefully, by talking about the problem, people can find how their perspectives can be somewhat altered to meet together in the middle and form this "truth" that we are trying to find. If we say that truth does not matter, we capitulate to the chaos.

I must say, now, as a grown man, I can look at myself, when I was a teenager and understand that I often behaved like a total ass towards many people (friends, family, GFs, women, teachers, you name it). Probably, I am still far from being a good person, even today. But only by clinging to the idea of finding reasonable truth and understanding other people, was I able to move in the positive direction. And hopefully, give this idea to my kid, that truth matters. It might take us centuries, or millennia, but we need to strive towards common truth. And not say things like "is doesn't matter what is true". I believe those are incredibly dangerous words. Hopefully, I understood correctly what Abby was trying to articulate by those words, and they should not be taken literally.

P.S. I am sorry if my English is incorrect somehow, it is my second language. I hope I have presented my thoughts in a clear and precise manner, which is very important, when talking about such sensitive and important things.

Abby is pretty liberal with talking about the the last of us 2. Characters and story should be off limits. Setting and atmosphere and game play should be all thats disscussed right now imo. Sucks. Wish I could have experienced the things she said myself. Really thought the Bombcast handled talking about this game in a much better manner. Expected the same, and now I no way more than I did. Kinda let down.

Especially with the aforementioned spolier cast from the site looming.

@dnofm Your English is fantastic, and your point was well made.

I haven’t listened yet but just want to say I appreciate you and the bombcast taking this so seriously. Some podcasts I listen to are dealing with it better than others, but I understand the difficulty of speaking publicly on these kinds of matters. GB has a large following and its been great to see y’all try to do your part.

@ybbaaabby: To give a little clarity about the TLOU2 character in question based on casting, not story:

One thing worth noting is that the character you were speaking of (Abby) is played by cis actress Laura Bailey, and the trans character in the game is portrayed by a trans actor. I think after the mis-step with Nadine in Lost Legacy, Naughty Dog has worked to try and make sure to be more careful with casting. Not that this invalidates the thoughts or feelings of your friends! I was in a similar boat early on.

Thank you so much y'all for naming the names and having this conversation. I hope that the Bombcast addresses this in the next episode as well.

EDIT: Just got to the part about the TLOU2 representation discussion, I HIGHLY recommend people watch Disclosure that was just released on Netflix, a documentary about representation of trans people in Hollywood, if you maybe don't understand or don't agree why it's important personally to people, as well as what the consequences of a lack of representation are at a societal level.

It's great to know that you're willing to take on these heavy and personal topics head-on. I understand that it's not an easy task, but it's obviously too important to not talk about in the most open way possible.

I think allegations that affected me the most out of the ones mentioned is Matt Pascual. He's not just been associated with Giant Bomb through some content, but also been heavily involved with the community at large. But no matter all the good things he's done for the Giant Bomb community and community projects that has affected so many people's lives, the things he's been accused of are totally unacceptable.

From what I understand it's not just that he cheated. It's also, and imo the most horrible aspect of it, that he emotionally abused his partners by turning concerns they had in their relationship around to make them feel guilty for everything that might have been wrong.
Based on the things I've seen people bring up in recent days makes it clear that he's a manipulative asshole that's been very careful and efficient at covering up his closet skeletons for many years.